Some comments in posts arent worth answering, but I get baited too easily.

I will be moving my longer replies to such posts to this thread.

From:

WANT TO BUY ETHERWAVE PRO

thread

This is an OFF TOPIC reply to an OFF TOPIC post!

"Those synth sounds Fred was saying were soothing to him were disturbing to me." - T

Well that had nothing to do with them being digital, LOL ... But then again, you heard them via you-tube compression if you dont have those albums on vynl, so who knows - All I know is that I love the sounds, all analogue, no MIDI, real old with CV's driving the lot (except the drums and electric guitar and some tape-loop samples, oh, and the mellotron which was a tape-based sample playback instrument).

But this is what, eventually, it all comes down to - subjective, personal taste.. Personal taste in sounds, personal taste in equalization and recording medium etc, and personal taste in music.

And there are trade-offs.. NOTHING is perfect! If white noise and occasional other transient sounds irritate the hell out of you, then analogue vynle or tape (unless you go for fast 1" R-R and they are getting difficult to find! Revox and Studer, I had one of each many years ago.. :) is inferior to digital CD's.. I love the warmth  'distortion' one gets from analogue tape, and theres a quality even from recordings I made using my Sansui WSX-1 cassette 6 tracker (tape ran at 6x normal speed, so I got 10 minutes on a C60) that I love and cannot recapture on my high end firewire digital recorder.

And if mains hum etc is highly irritating to you, you may prefer the sound from a Jaycar theremin to the sound from an RCA!

"Can someone tell me what the digital approach to theremin building will offer the end user that they need and don't already have. Or maybe what they will lose." - T

Yeh, they will lose on digital toys like the theremini. I can (and several people have) tell you the potential benefits of going digital for theremins, these include adjustable linearity and adjustable span .. Apart from that, I am not convinced of much else - But I am not a digital engineer, have no understanding of DSP, and am not placed to have any real vision of sonic potential... Other people here, however, do have this vision.

(oh, there is also the cost factor - a good digital theremin could be produced at a fraction of the cost that an equivalent analogue one would cost - There is also the maintenance - Designers / engineers / technicians with good knowledge and skills in high frequency analogue are far rarer than those who work with digital circuits.. Analogue theremins are labour intensive, and as the skills disappear, cost of "genuine" theremins compared to modern replacements must increase.. The mass of future theremins WILL have at least a substantial digital component, economics dictates this - So NOW is the time that development of high quality digital instruments is vital - because unless this happens, a crap standard will be set and copied, and theremins will give way to thereminis.)

As I see the potential, with my limited vision, its to get the "front end" divorced from the "sound engine" so that the front-end can be made better. I would use the front-end to drive a analogue heterodyning theremin (or more than one) and add formant filters and comprehensive wave-shaping so that those who wanted a greater sound pallette could have it, but that the sound could be classic analogue theremin from classic theremin circuitry for those who want this - I would go for a V/Octave system so that those who want to could tack a synthesiser to the theremin and track every note and nuance right down to C0 with low latency... Or they could tack antenna-less, front-end-less "genuine" analogue theremin "expanders" onto the CV out - these could be replica RCA's or EW's or whatever, they could even have tubes in them! ;-)

But you dont want to hear this do you? - Lets guess, next question will be "when will you have these in production" - So I will answer in advance, as I have done before.. Probably never! Ok? Got it? I post stuff here because I like to see myself in print, because I hope that someone out there will get use from what I post, and because theres a lottery ticket chance that when im pushing up daisy's my kids might have fun with a great theremin I had some part in "seeding" ... So we dont need to continue this hijack, I have answered your "question" in advance!

"If the sound on my one tube theremin is lost to time I think using a midi sound will be a theremin travesty." - T

MIDI has no sound, its a communication protocol !    MIDI is, IMO, entirely unsuitable for the control of theremins, but digital theremins dont bus MIDI signals inside them or use MIDI for anything internally, and actually talking about MIDI in terms of sound is just ignorant nonsense!

Why do people who know nothing repeat their ignorant comments and hijack multiple threads just to vent their nonsense? What relationship has ANY of this to the sale of an E-Pro ? Everything said (except the comment on my synth tastes, but that was just bait for me..) by T has been said before by him on other threads and comprehensively answered on these.. He doesn't reply to these posts or argue or discuss, he waits for some other thread / time / place and poses the same "questions" again, sometimes mildly disguised..

They are not questions, they are intended as provocations.

Fred.

MIDI (/ˈmɪdi/; short for Musical Instrument Digital Interface) is a technical standard that describes a protocol, digital interface and connectors and allows a wide variety of electronic musical instruments, computers and other related devices to connect and communicate with one another.^[1] A single MIDI link can carry up to sixteen channels of information, each of which can be routed to a separate device.

MIDI carries event messages that specify notation, pitch and velocity, control signals for parameters such as volume, vibrato, audio panning, cues, and clock signals that set and synchronize tempo between multiple devices. These messages are sent to other devices where they control sound generation and other features. This data can also be recorded into a hardware or software device called a sequencer, which can be used to edit the data and to play it back at a later time.^[2]:4

MIDI technology was standardized in 1983 by a panel of music industry representatives, and is maintained by the MIDI Manufacturers Association (MMA). All official MIDI standards are jointly developed and published by the MMA in Los Angeles, California, US, and for Japan, the MIDI Committee of the Association of Musical Electronics Industry (AMEI) in Tokyo.

from:

Silicon Chip Opto-Theremin

"Hey that sounds exactly like what I read on how to increase volume attack earlier in the "staccato pedal thread" before it got all complicated with try at your own risk warnings. That original guy showed his results with audio sound samples to allow his method to be experienced. Maybe they are working together?" - Troll

There are people of different competency levels here at TW. Unless warnings and advice is given, people may undertake projects and waste their money and time because they are unable to get these to work because they lack the knowledge and competency required (or in some cases because the claims made for the circuit are lies or delusions of the poster). And anyway -that "guy" with his "audio sound samples" never showed folks how he got those samples, or gave full details or schematics - and probably more people wasted time trying to replicate his designs which he claimed worked, but no one else could get to work or verify, than time wasted on anything else promoted at TW.

Placing warnings on such articles is the responsible thing to do... But that "guy" never did that - he made  impossible claims like "perfect linearity" and that he had made the best theremin the world had ever seen, and he completely lacked any objectivity or humility. When 'explorers' here did open investigation of his designs, and showed that they never worked, he went and published out-of-context extracts from these explorations on his web site to give the impression that they had worked!

Placing warnings also allows those who dont like "complicated" (or who want a circuit ready-to-go, and arent interested in ideas or how things work) to simply avoid reading those posts!

Hey - why dont you just stop reading what I post? You are WAY too technically incompetent to understand anything I say, so save yourself some time and save me the aggravation of having to reply to your stupid snipes!

Whatever - the bottom line is that wherever you go, whatever the topic, you find some tiny cobweb on which to stick some irrelevant snipe or complaint, and it often has the same target - me!

This is not me being paranoid - On the pedal thread, I was the only person giving "warnings" so your target could not have been anyone else.

- this is commonly called trolling. STOP DOING IT!!!!!

I am happy to get feedback on posts I make, from you or anyone else, if these are constructive - I dont have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me or showing mistakes in what I say - provided they do so on the topic and respond to / discuss any counter arguments I present. I fully accept that I am an imperfect and flawed individual, that I make mistakes and say stupid and sometimes things which others find offensive. But when shown my error, I am capable of apologizing and correcting the situation.

But I will not put up with snide background unjustified abuse, even though I am aware that this comes from a brainless troll!

Fred.

(It should also be noted that by giving such warnings I am also complying with the advice / instruction of the TW Technical moderator, and that I started this practice at TW before you joined TW in this 'incarnation',  and it was endorsed by Thierry)

From

Moog Theremini Owners

thread, in reply to RS posting copied below.

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Fred said: " my advice that he sells the theremini and buys a Moog EW is still the best advice - and if saying that chases away someone, then IMO, so be it!"

This thread is for Theremini owners to express fun and adventure in their new purchase, not self proclaimed experts in all things electronic, that is why I have mostly stayed away. People that are new to Theremin World need to feel welcomed and not trampled upon. Hijackers and Trolls are not welcomed.

Christopher

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Once again, you are stalking me.. You are coming to a thread with NO OTHER agenda than to attack me, and NO OTHER AGENDA than to start an argument and hijack the thread.

You are the cause of more people leaving TW than any other TW Member, You are the person who consistantly gives MISLEADING AND DISHONEST advice here on TW knowing full well that what you aere saying is misleading and dishonest.

 

So.. Lets look at what I said in my first posting on the thread:

---------------------------

Hello Gary, If you want a theremin that you can play as a theremin, send your theremini back and get a Moog EW or EW+..   See http://www.thereminworld.com/Forums/T/29283/moog-theremini?Page=35  There is no software update that will turn the theremini into a theremin! - not now, not ever!

Fred.

--------------------------

This brief posting was not offensive or derogatory - It never said anything bad about Moog, in fact it advised the use of a Moog theremin (I could easily have suggested a Burns or SC theremin at a lower price point than the THEREMINI, and any of these would still be a BETTER theremin than the THEREMINI CAN EVER BE!)

The reason I made this posting on that thread was BECAUSE GARY WAS TRYING TO USE THE THEREMINI TO PLAY TUNES AS ONE CAN WITH A theremin - IF GARY HAD BEEN TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, I WOULD NOT HAVE ENTERED THIS THREAD - BUT PLAYING TUNES USING CHEATS OR WHATEVER CANNOT WORK WITH THE THEREMINI!

IF SOMEONE WANTS A theremin AND WANTS TO PLAY AN INSTRUMENT IN THE SAME WAY THAT A theremin CAN BE PLAYED, THEN THE BEST THING THEY CAN DO IS TO SELL THEIR THEREMINI AND BUY A theremin !

WHAT IS OFFENSIVE ABOUT SAYING THAT ????

The response I get was close to if I had suggested burning a Quran ! "This is my first day on Theremin World and I thought it might be a useful resource for learning more about theremins and in particular the Theremini.  As a newcomer is there anyone that moderates the group that can clean up posts such as from Fred in this thread? " - Gary

"is there anyone that moderates the group that can clean up posts such as from Fred in this thread? "

NOTHING I SAID WAS OFFENSIVE! Nothing I said had ANY INTENTION other than to be helpful -   What on earth in that needs to be "cleaned up" by the moderators ??? If it didn't make me so angry, it would be really funny! ;-)

But no comment on Coalport's "I'm one of those THEREMINI owners who thinks the instrument is a piece of shit and that Bob Moog is revolving in his grave. "

Yeah, And now you, smelling the potential to stir any shit and throw it in my direction, jumps in..

And if I responded on that thread, you would have a field day and manage to divert the whole thread to serve your purposes. (and you have NO interest in helping anyone else or promoting theremins or advancing understanding, you are ONLY interested in self-glorification and feeding your narcissistic personality disorder's needs)

YOU ARE A TROLL! ... You have no more or less "right" to post anything on this thread than I do - but I have at least played with the theremini for several hours now, have you? My posts on this thread are intended to be helpful, even if people dont like them - What are you contributing ?

" Hijackers and Trolls are not welcomed." .. So YOU are not welcome !

Fred Wrote: "MIDI is, IMO, entirely unsuitable for the control of theremins"

(hijacking the hijack thread!) i recently read about some practice of manufacturers to lump two midi messages together for greater controller resolution.  i think the first number becomes the "coarse" number and the next number "fine"... after the overhead for the protocol, this yields a 14-bit resolution.  i have not actually heard how this might sound in practice, but it seems like a continuous stream of 14-bit pitch (with some interpolation) and 14-bit volume controllers wouldn't sound THAT bad to control a faux-theremin voice via MIDI... would it...?  obv. would depend what range this is meant to extend over but just given that there would be 16xxx numbers available instead of 128 numbers (for traditional midi)... (speculation>) that seems like enough resolution for the typical 4-5 octave playable range, right?

here is some sort of explanation:  http://cycling74.com/forums/topic/14bit-cc-to-ableton/

anyhow, for what it's worth, i have always found your posts to be spirited, yet charitable to newbie questions... i would know, because i have myself posted such questions hah!

"anyhow, for what it's worth, i have always found your posts to be spirited, yet charitable to newbie questions... i would know, because i have myself posted such questions hah!" - Hewson

Hello Hewson ;-) Many thanks for your kind words!

Yes, 14 bit controllers are available (although I have only come across one instrument that used a one of these - I think it was an EWI)..

And 14 bits is enough resolution - The problem is that transmitting 14 bits takes about 3ms (running status cannot be used) and there is also a potential problem if updating the LSB and MSB is not done carefully - as in, the data word must be updated in the RX device in one 'hit' - updating LSB and MSB asynchronously as they are recieved (as this instrument I once examined did) one gets horrible audio glitching.

For a theremin one really needs to TX two 14 bit control words (Volume and pitch) - we are really looking at about 6-7ms per update, and this is in the borderline zone..

So not impossible -

But IMO, pointless..

The real use of MIDI is that its a standard interface, so you can plug synths and samplers and expanders in... Without there being any such equipment capable of receiving and processing high resolution MIDI data from a theremin, its simply not worth making a theremin capable of transmitting such data!

However, there are loads of CV synths and CV modules capable of accepting CV generated by a theremin, and the CV isnt 'slugged' by the inherent slow MIDI speed..

So as I see it, CV now - Some new fast "MIDI" protocol is bound to be established as a new standard at some future time, and at such a time, the theremin can hopefully exploit this!

There is a technical hijack thread which might be ideal for a hijack of the hijack trash can ;-)

Fred.

oops, i hadn't considered the latency issue...!  blergh... oh well, it's definitely nice that there is so much CV gear out there now!

"oops, i hadn't considered the latency issue..." - Hewson

LOL ;-)

I can think of some "engineers" who seem to have forgotten or ignored that issue recently, LOL ;-) .. so dont feel "blergh..." about it! ;-) .. After all, its only 7ms, not 100ms ;-)

Fred.